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Law and Governance are aspects of most societies and have been for ages. I’d like to believe that in times past, we didn’t have such a messed up system and society.  I’ve always avoided Court like the plague, having a gut feeling the whole thing was set up to trap you in some way. After hearing this interview, I knew what that gut feeling was about.

By now, most people have heard of for profit prisons, no doubt a big part of the Bankers wet dream world we live in, but this podcast highlights one very specific way that most courts, judges, lawyers (on BOTH sides) all fail you, screw you, deceive you, and do it all without most people knowing what just happened. The best part of the interview, is that they don’t just talk about how deceitful most arraignment hearings are, or how bad the system is screwing all of us. They actually highlight a case that beat the State Attorney and the Police Officer who filed the charges at their own game!  Through Greg’s case, they show that if you don’t loose your cool, are not acting in ways that should get you arrested, and follow a few steps, you can do a lot for your position in Court.  Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think a system that is based on defendants not understanding the terms, jargon, situation etc… is good. I just wanted to applaud the courage, content and efforts made by Greg, Dr. Tom, Freeman Burt and Gnostic Media.

Some of the best quotes and points made, just to give you a little taste…

“So he handcuffs me, and he says “How was that man, was that worth it?” I have to stress through out this entire, obviously this entire interchange, up until this point, I timed it after seeing the video, we do happen to have video, took 52 seconds, took no time at all for this guy to loose his cool and pull me straight out of the car, and I just have to emphasize that I maintain my cool throughout this, I mean it was very important to me. Obviously, I was not dealing with somebody who was very rational, I mean, you kind of just, I had to just maintain my cool, cause this was a psychopath I’m dealing with. ”

“one point that was very important is that prior to this guy beginning to pull Greg out of his private property, the safety of his private property. Greg consented to giving him the information that he wanted, and the guy ignored it. He was more concentrated on enforcing his authority, than accomplishing, basically what he himself kept demanding for.”

“in dealing with this type of of “Government Officials” it has nothing to do with being macho, it has nothing to do with putting your manhood at stake. I mean Greg could have killed this guy, there’s no doubt about it. The guy compromised himself very stupidly by reaching into the property and putting himself between the steering wheel and Greg. Greg could have taken care of him right there and then, so it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with you being smarter then them, and putting yourself into the situation where your now gathering evidence where you can use against them because you can never allow them to turn the situation, to become evidence to be used against you and that’s where I really commend Greg, that he was able to keep his cool. I mean so cool, he’s just unbelievable.”

“For the records Sir, and with all due respect, I would like to request all questions in writing if at all possible and 21 days to respond.”

“essentially, the Demurrer as this specific document, is the thing that triggers this probably cause hearing. At least its supposed to. It is supposed to be the thing that challenges probable cause that says of the facts that have been alleged, here is why there is not enough law to make a case out of this.”

“the purpose that we had there was of course to go to Court, not make the Prosecutors job easy, and not to allow the Judge to basically guide you into a trap.”

“so if you don’t want to be held in Contempt of Court, don’t speak to the Judge. That’s very easy to do.”

“Yeah, every time you open your mouth, you speak for the Record. That way you’re not speaking to the Judge, you’re speaking to the Record. The Record cannot hold you in Contempt of Court.”

“in these types of situations, you got to realize that a cop, you know, he’s got the uniform on, he’s got his bullet proof vest on, that is pea-cocking, so trump their pea-cocking.”

An Interview with Freeman Burt, Dr. Tom, and Greg by Gnostic Media

Gnostic Media Introduction:

It’s time for the next episode of Gnostic Media’s Podcast episode #201. I’m your host Jan Irvin. This episode is about the Demurrer and probable cause. It’s being released on May 28th 2014, and was recorded April 24th 2014. Sorry for the delay in getting this episode out, and we are going to be with Freeman Burt, who most of your are familiar with and also Dr. Tom, so I’ll skip the introductions on them and in this episode we’ll be joined by Greg. Greg is a gigging musician and music instructor, who found himself at the mercy of a Police enforcer, of lesser intelligence, one night on the way home from a gig. A student of the trivium, psychology and natural law, Greg took it upon himself respectfully decline, acquiescence to the officers demands for documentation, and soon found himself being violently, ripped from his property with no prior warning of intent to arrest. Greg maintained his cool and attempted to refrain from escalating the situation with a person, obviously acting outside the bounds of reason and law. He found it vastly more important to see down the longer road ahead, and used lawful reason to assert his natural rights.

After a brief stint in county jail, Greg contacted Freeman Burt in order to obtain assistance in thwarting the nonsensical resistance changes brought against him, by this agent of the state, acting under the color of law. He has learned a great deal in a short amount of time, but his motivation has remained strong as he has attempted to navigate City Hall. He has smelled the rotten fruits of the fallacy of ad verecundiam first hand, and it has awakened something in him that will never sleep again. We have a few references up to this episode, including The Art of War – Sun Tzu, The Highwaymen, with Freeman Burt and Bob from last year, and also links for the 808 #16 Camera. Donations let’s see here, this weeks episode is brought to you by Louis, Zdravko, Michael, Peter, Casey, Brian, Tino, Jeremy, Carlos, Steven, Paul, Penny, Barry, and Scott. Thanks to all of you for making this episode happen. We do our best to provide just about everything here for free, but your donations and website purchases are what keep us going and we ask, that you do please sign up for a membership for the website, or make a regular monthly donation or just donate when you can because without you the episodes stop. Of course we also accept Bitcoin, Lightcoin, Feather Coin and other donations. Please check out the store page where you can get our wheat blows bumper stickers, our books, DVDs, She Remembers archives, the first five years of the Gnostic Media podcast, etc…

The views expressed by the Authors and guests of this UN-program are their own and are not necessarily those held by myself, the Host, or Gnostic Media the website, www.gnosticmedia.com. You can reach me through the contact form on the website, or at contact@gnosticmedia.com. Thanks for listening and thanks for your support, here is my interview with Greg, Freeman Burt and Dr. Tom, the Demurrer and probable cause, enjoy!

Interview

Gnostic Media:

We are here with Greg, Burt and Tom. Greg this is your first time to the show, welcome.

Greg:

Yeah, thank Jan, I really appreciate you having me on man.

Gnostic Media:

Burt, and Dr. Tom, you are quite regular and quite regulars here and popular guests, so welcome back to the Gnostic Media Podcast.

Freeman Burt:

Thank you.

Dr Tom:

Thank you Sir.

Gnostic Media:

Greg, why don’t we start off and have you tell us a little bit about your recent situation that has you on the Gnostic Media Podcast with Freeman Burt and Dr. Tom.

Greg:

Alright

Freeman Burt:

Well, first of all, how did you even get connected to this situation, let’s first of all begin with that.

Greg:

What as far as far as you guys? As far as how I heard of you?

Freeman Burt:

Yeah.

Greg:

Well, it’s funny actually, I’ve, Jan, I’ve probably been listening to your podcast for a good couple of years now. So, I have a number of your podcasts on CD actually, just in my vehicle, or in my property at all times, and I believe, in fact, when this all went down, I’m pretty sure Burt was on my CD player at the time. I think I was listening to one of the podcasts when this was all happening.

So, again, I’ve been studying these things for I suppose, quite some time and by these things I suppose mean, some of the, some of the realities of what the 14th Amendment seems to have done to person hood and citizenship, etc… So, obviously this affects traffic, this affects what we do in our “vehicles.” So, actually I had already made a certain move, in terms of freeing myself from whatever the licensure is supposed to impose upon me by putting a sign on the back of my vehicle, my property, that says, “Not for Hire, Private Property.” So, there’s a very explicit statement I’m trying to make, in that particular instance, I’m not acting in commerce. So, I had done this prior to this incident happening, so this is already information I was kind of inundating myself with and trying to assimilate all of it. So again, the affect of having you guys on CD too, has been great. It’s hysterical too talking to you now because you know I might as well be listing to a CD I feel like. I’ve heard you guys go back and forth on a number of topics at this point. Anyway, so I’d heard Burt, what essentially happened to me, Burt feel free to jump in to this at any point man, I can ramble.

Freeman Burt:

You’re doing fine.

Greg:

Essentially, what happened in the beginning of January this year, in fact, on New Years Day. I was actually coming home from a gig, I’m a musician, a base player, keyboard player, etc… and I actually teach music in the area. I was about 2 hours away or so on this New Year gig, so I was on my way home after the ball had dropped, etc… and I was about, like about 2 hours away or so, from my house, and I was, while I was on my way home, this would have been about 2:15 in the morning. I had stopped for gas or I was about to stop for gas, anyway, about halfway there, and as I pull into a gas pump I notice that there’s a police cruiser is behind me and his lights had just come on and I had absolutely no idea, he was behind me at any point, I was just pulling over to get some gas. I pull in and essentially roll my window down just a little bit and put my car in park and turn the car off. I’m prepared to engage this guy, so I roll my window down about an inch and he’s up and out of his car in about 8 or 9 seconds, it did not take him long. He asked for me to roll my window down and I told him, it is down and he said, “Come man, don’t do this.” “Roll your window down” and I said, “My window is down.” So, the he demanded my drivers license and I told him “Sir, I’d rather not volunteer that information”. He asked me again and I told him again, I would rather not volunteer that information and he at this point, ripped my door open, and I didn’t have my door locked, which might have been unfortunate, but I’m not totally sure. He says, “What did you say to me?” And I said, “I’m sorry sir, I cannot give”, actually, I asked him if he was threatening me too, which he did not answer and I needed to know are you threatening me, and he didn’t answer me, he’s demanding my drivers license, so I told him one more time, that I cannot voluntarily give you that information. I can show you my information, but I don’t appreciate you being in my car. He said, “Don’t you move.” He reached across my body and unbuckled my seat belt and said get out of the car, and at this point I just kind of stopped responding to him, he’s obviously very unreasonable. He said again, “Get out of the car, get out of the car”, and he grabs my left arm and starts pulling me. He had, he had to jerk me a couple times, I’m sort of a bigger fella, I’m about 6’3”, I’m about 230, 240 pounds or so. So he pulls me out and puts me belly first against the open door, he radios for backup so, I mean, he was able to do that, pull his little radio deal off of his chest and radio for backup and then he kind of whipped me around and again, he’s a smaller fellow than myself. He sort of jumped on my back, and tried to take me down with his weight, but on my way down he gave me a good couple of fists to the back of the head, such that my forehead went against the concrete a couple of times, so I’m bleeding from the forehead at this point, and he’s on back of me, telling me to put my hands behind my back, which, you know, I do. So he handcuffs me, and he says “How was that man, was that worth it?” I have to stress through out this entire, obviously this entire interchange, up until this point, I timed it after seeing the video, we do happen to have video, took 52 seconds, took no time at all for this guy to loose his cool and pull me straight out of the car, and I just have to emphasize that I maintain my cool throughout this, I mean it was very important to me. Obviously, I was not dealing with somebody who was very rational, I mean, you kind of just, I had to just maintain my cool, cause this was a psychopath I’m dealing with. So he gets me on the ground, he’s handcuffed me, he puts the right one on very tight, and he gets me up on my butt, and up against his cruiser and he starts searching my body. He puts me in the back of his cruiser and then starts a search of my property, that’s essentially, that’s the essence of what happened in terms of the assault. Bert, would you want to jump in at this point?

Freeman Burt:

Well, one point that was very important is that prior to this guy beginning to pull Greg out of his private property, the safety of his private property. Greg consented to giving him the information that he wanted, and the guy ignored it. He was more concentrated on enforcing his authority, than accomplishing, basically what he himself kept demanding for.

Greg:

Yeah, he gave me no venue even to answer his question really. Of course I told him that I did not want to voluntarily give him this information. You know, it gets me thinking how I’ll deal with it the next time it happens. This is obviously, these are not men who have thought much about these things, that’s quite obvious. I’m sure that doesn’t go for all of them, but I don’t know how to reason with these fellows.

Gnostic Media:

They just assume that they have the right to go around doing all this stuff, jerking people out of their cars, threatening people, just because they have a badge on, and technically, they have no more right, than any other regular citizen. Any person can do an arrest, any body can make a citizens arrest and so these people are assuming authority, and as you said this authority, you said that he was a psychopath, which is exactly what this type of behavior is, and aside from criminals, policemen, CEOs, etc… are most commonly psychopathic people.

Greg:

Yeah, I mean if you’ve never experienced the word “No” in your entire life, or even say any, this guy’s wearing a badge now. (Cuts Out)

Gnostic Media:

So, where were we when we lost the connection, yet again?

Greg:

Talking about these guys being psychopaths, and you never hear the word no in your life I can only imagine what’s that’s going to do to your psyche. You know? These are fellows, this is a particular officer we know, just from some of the dirt we’ve dug up on him, has gotten away with this kind of thing a number of times. So, these are guys walking around with this false, obviously under the color of law, but with this false sense of superiority and authority, not just because of the badge but because no one out there is really telling them, hey this is not cool man, you can’t do that. You cannot do this stuff.

Gnostic Media:

So, Tom, why don’t you, would you like to add something being a Doctor regarding his mental stability?

Dr Tom:

Yeah, sounds more than a sociopath, the old term is sociopath, but he sounds like what now would be called a psychopath. He also seems to have really bad reality testing, and that is, he’s not looking at the real world and taking it into account. There’s no way that I would, if I were a small guy, maybe 155, 160 pounds, that I would try to wrestle a 230 pound man out of his truck. That seems reckless to me, because there are stand your ground rules. You know the Supreme Court recognized that you can defend yourself against even policemen and there are stand your ground rules all over the place in different states, and if he … the only thing you would have to be able to do, would be to disable his ability to get to his gun, so that you could stand your ground, and then beat the tar out of him.

Freeman Burt:

Well, you know that’s one the points we need to highlight here, because in dealing with this type of of “Government Officials” it has nothing to do with being macho, it has nothing to do with putting your manhood at stake. I mean Greg could have killed this guy, there’s no doubt about it. The guy compromised himself very stupidly by reaching into the property and putting himself between the steering wheel and Greg. Greg could have taken care of him right there and then, so it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with you being smarter then them, and putting yourself into the situation where your now gathering evidence where you can use against them because you can never allow them to turn the situation, to become evidence to be used against you and that’s where I really commend Greg, that he was able to keep his cool. I mean so cool, he’s just unbelievable.

Gnostic Media:

Have the two of you thought of contacting the previous people that he’s had run ins with before?

Freeman Burt:

Oh, absolutely.

Greg:

Yeah, we’ve definitely considered it. I do have all the records and complaints at this point.

Gnostic Media:

So, how many complaints have there been and what are the like?

Greg:

I believe this guy was brought on to the force in May 2012 and since then he’s had I think 7 or 8 formal complaints, and this isn’t including a number of people who showed up to City Council meetings just to complain about him. So there have been formal complaints filed, I believe there is one actual case in action right now, and then there are a number of formal complaints.

Freeman Burt:

Yeah, there are internal complaints and there are external complaints. Internal meaning, within the police department and then external, meaning coming from outside of the police department. Here’s the one thing that I really want people to take away from this recording, is that you need to become familiar with being able to access public records. To make public records requests, because that can lead to much more information. Then you also need to become familiar with the hearings that are executed in your particular country or city by the commissioners, because that’s all public information. That’s how Greg was able to come across information about this guy because he was mentioned in some of these hearings.

Greg:

Yup, and you know as a city cop, all his personal records are on file, so one of my favorite things so far has been to call his ex-employers because that led me to, and I still have to go pick this up too, its like 200 pages I’m going to go pick up from a former police department this guys was at, where he was, as I’m told from one of his former field training officers, he was forced to resign in lieu of termination. I don’t know why. So, I’m very fascinated to learn.

Gnostic Media:

And, he had claimed to have left that police department voluntarily, is that correct?

Greg:

Oh, yeah, yeah. He says it’s ah…

Gnostic Media:

Even though it was a forced… you either leave or your fired type of situation.

Greg:

Right. I believe his exact wording was, it wasn’t a good fit for me. Lovely.

Gnostic Media:

Now, when you had talked to one of the police departments, you had called them up and asked them about this guy and they, what did they say to you?

Greg:

For a little while there, I was playing, they had my number, I pretty certain. I could not get any to pick up for me at the police department for the longest time. Finally one day, I called from a Google number, so a number they obviously didn’t have, and then finally the police chief picks up and I talk to him a little bit, I told him what I was looking for. He was just hired, there’s some interesting things happening in this city particularly, but just in terms of what is going on with this police department. So, there was a guy that retired recently, there was a guy who was fired recently, and this guy was brought in, so he kind of gave me a little spiel how he was just brought in and he was trying to get things organized, etc… Burt and I are pretty certain that the city attorney, or the state attorney probably talked to him and told him not to talk to me. Probably, not to tell me anything. So, I actually didn’t have tons of contact with the police department directly.

Freeman Burt:

Well, not that you didn’t try, because you went there and was there and they didn’t want to talk to you.

Gnostic Media:

What I was getting at was you had called one of the police departments and asked one of his former employers and asked them about him, that’s what I was getting to.

Greg:

Yeah, well, that, I actually called them directly. He left them as references on his employee application, so I called them, just as they were left as references. So, I got their personal numbers. Some of them don’t even work for the PD anymore, and one or two of them weren’t terribly happy to hear from me, it sounded like. One of them was very surprised that this guy would have used him as a reference. It’s fascinating.

Gnostic Media:

And, what did they say when you contacted them?

Greg:

Only one of them told me, so three or four of them have contacted me at this point. One of them, two of them were willing to speak after receiving subpena and one of them just kind of was talking to me a little bit. It was a female training officer of his, who, when I mentioned that he is sort of gaining a bit of a reputation, I mentioned I’m conducting an independent investigation on this guys and that he’s sort of gaining a reputation at the new PD, and she said to me, yeah, that doesn’t surprise me in the least. I asked her, is there any information you feel like would be able to help me? My only question really was, he mentioned he left voluntarily, is that true? She was the only one to tell me, well, he was… they essentially were forcing him to resign.

Freeman Burt:

Yeah, he was contrary to what he apparently seems to be claiming. See what were doing when Greg is calling is, you know, in his application, which is public record, he said this, is that correct? That’s all we’re asking.

Greg:

Yeah, very simple.

Freeman Burt:

We’re trying to see if he’s lying. It appears that, if he’s not lying, he’s at least painting a slightly different picture.

Gnostic Media:

Alright, and we’re going to show the courtroom clip for this, as well as the truck police incident clip. You know at the beginning of this episode, if we’re able to. We can bleep whatever out, you know if we can blur things out and make it so people can’t tell who and where this is, I think it will be fine, right?

Greg:

We’ll have to see what we can do. I’ll talk to Burt more about it. We just, we don’t want to compromise the tort action that we’re going to move forward with.

Gnostic Media:

Right, well, I mean if license plates and badges, city, anything that could identify who or where this is is blurred out, I think we’ll be alright, right?

Freeman Burt:

No, at this point, I think the only thing I would be OK showing is the video of the courtroom hearing, but anything related to the actual assault, we can’t air just yet.

Greg:

It doesn’t say we couldn’t keep up with you, I’d love to eventually get it out there, because people do need to see it.

Gnostic Media:

Alright, so what happened in the courtroom and you know, what I’ll do, is I’ll insert the audio clip of the courtroom right here:

Courtroom Video:

Audio Transcript:

State Attorney:

Up next to bleeeeep number bleeeeep Mr. Bleeeeeep, here for arraignment and unrepresented. He has had substantial communication with the State Attorney’s Office, in what appears to be an attempt to represent himself. He’s filed several documents that appear to be civil in nature, as opposed to criminal, and not in compliance with the rules of criminal procedure. I had sent him an email in response to his email to me, asking if I had received his Demurrer advising him that he has the opportunity to seek the public defender or private counsel to assist him, even if its only with the appropriate filing of things, I know that he produced something to the clerk, which the State believes possibly might be an attempt of reciprocal discovery but again not in compliance of the rules.

Judge:

 I think I have that here. Mr. Would you state your full name for the record?

Greg:

For the record, I’m a man known as Bleeeeeep.

Judge:

OK. Mr. Bleeeeep. I’ve been handed two different disc’s. This is not something I can obtain, I cannot receive this at this point, OK? Bailiff, if you’ll had it back to him.

Greg:

For the record, I did intend to enter that into the Court record, by handing it to the Court Clerk, thank you Sir.

Judge:

There’s an appropriate time to do that, this is not the time to do that. This is called an arraignment, its basically just to put you on official notice, what you’re charged with. It gives you the opportunity to enter one of three pleas basically. The first plea would be a plea of Not Guilty. The second plea would be a plea of No Contest, or a plea of Guilty…

Greg:

For the record, Sir I’m here…

Judge:

Before you do that, I need to inform you, you do have the right to an attorney and if you cannot afford an attorney, we’ll appoint the office of public defender to represent you in this matter. Would you like the attorney, the public defenders office to represent you?

Greg:

I comprehend Sir, that’s OK. Thank you.

Judge:

What’s that?

Greg:

I comprehend, that’s OK, thank you.

Judge:

No problem.

Greg:

For the record I am here on special appearance to establish a date for Probably Cause hearing, in order to address the Demurrer that I filed on March 18th. I actually would just like to set a date.

Judge:

That’s fine, but you need to, I know you comprehend what I’m saying but I need you answer what I’m asking you. Would you like an attorney to represent you?

Greg:

No, Sir.

Judge:

OK, that’s fine and you understand the advantages of having an attorney?

Greg:

I do comprehend those.

Judge:

OK, have you ever studied Law anywhere?

Greg:

I have Sir.

Judge:

OK. where? Where’s that?

Greg:

It wasn’t professional. I didn’t do it at an institution Sir.

Judge:

You have studied Law?

Greg:

Privately. Privately. Private sorry for the record.

Judge:

OK, have you ever represented yourself in a criminal action?

Greg:

For the records Sir, and with all due respect, I would like to request all questions in writing if at all possible and 21 days to respond.

Judge:

OK. I will submit that, have, I will send a form to you. I will require you to read that and respond to that, and then we will go from there. At this point, you are declining counsel, correct?

Greg:

Yes, Sir.

Judge:

Is your correct address on file?

Greg:

I believe so, it’s a P.O. Box. Can I double check with the clerks?

Judge:

Yeah, sure.

Greg:

Thank you, Sir.

Judge:

And before you leave, and as far as a hearing date, we’ll set that just by contacting my judicial assistant.

Greg:

That’s fine.

Judge:

You will do that in the next 30 days, I would assume, and let’s set this for tracking purposes on April 24th.

Greg:

Yes, Sir.

Judge:

And do you have an email that we can send that too you?

Greg:

I believe so.

Judge:

It can be much more quickly.

Greg:

Yeah.

Judge:

If you;ll leave that address, email address, with the Clerk we’ll send that form to you.

Greg:

Thank you, your Honor.

Judge:

Alright, we’ll see you soon.

Greg:

Thank you Sir.

Back to Podcast…

Gnostic Media:

And, but, why don’t you go and Greg, from your first hand experience and tell us what happened in the courtroom, now that we’ve just heard it.

Greg:

OK. Alright, a bit of preface obviously, I there for arraignment, and what this man tried to charge me with was resisting an office with violence, and battery on a law enforcement officer. So this particular clip is after information has been filed, but only for one of these charges. The only one they ended up trying to pursue was the resisting with violence. So you see me walking up there, the State Attorney is sort of professionally lambasting me a bit. He’s telling the judge, that I’ve had a lot contact with the State Attorneys Office, that I’m unrepresented, and that is seems as though I’ve tried to file some sort of paperwork that appears to be civil in nature, but against the rules of criminal procedure…

Freeman Burt:

OK, but let me pause you there for a second, because I don’t want to jump directly into what you were doing there without explaining a little bit. I don’t want people to think that they can just hear and listen to what Greg did and then they going to have a magic bullet in their hands and repeat what Greg did. So prior to explaining what you did, I would like you to talk about your plan, and your strategy, and basically what you were expecting and demanding to happen in Court, and basically what the Court, because the Court had a purpose, had a job to accomplish, but you also had a job to accomplish. So, let’s first talk about it from the Court’s point of view. What was it that you knew the Court was trying to, was going to try to do, when you got to this, when you arrived at this Court?

Greg:

Well, as an arraignment hearing, they were expecting to hear, and the Judge told me this directly. He was expecting to hear one of three pleas. This is entering a plea on the record. Obviously they expect to hear Guilty, Not Guilty or No Contest, and that was essentially what they were expecting from me. So, from their perspective, this was supposed to have been me accepting the facts, accepting the law and entering some form of defense essentially.

Freeman Burt:

OK, and why is that not advantageous to you?

Greg:

Well, because I would have, I would have essentially given up, my right to challenge probable cause. If I would have entered a plea, I would have given up my opportunity to even say, well listen, there might not even be a case here. Of the facts that have been stated, OK these are the facts, OK, whatever, I’m not even going to test these facts, but is there enough to go on. Do your laws cover anything that has to do with these facts, that you could possibly move a case forward on? That is challenging probably cause, so this was essentially, we have to backtrack a bit, because this is what Burt was able to help me out with. This was in the form of a Demurrer that we filed.

Freeman Burt:

And what’s a Demurrer?

Gnostic Media:

Exactly. Burt and I have discussed this before but let’s make it fresh in everyone’s heads.

Greg:

Yeah, sure. The Demurrer is this fantastic little document that is specifically to set forth Our Law, you know the law that I am operating under, and that included in this particular case Florida Statute case law, I think we found a number of, there been about nine cases or so, that backed up my position here, but essentially, the Demurrer as this specific document, is the thing that triggers this probably cause hearing. At least its supposed to. It is supposed to be the thing that challenges probable cause that says of the facts that have been alleged, here is why there is not enough law to make a case out of this. If I’m making that clear enough, Burt?

Freeman Burt:

Well, we were saying according to your statute, this, this is true this appears to be true, we just made a whole connection of different things and we’re saying that the officer appears to have behaved in contradiction to this particular Statute here. Which is supported by this particular case, and then we’re basically saying well we want to have a hearing were we can now allow the other side to combat our point and then show the Court, that in fact, they do have probable cause. So, let me ask you this Greg, so, who is benefiting the greatest if you were to enter a plea of Not Guilty?

Greg:

The Prosecution, I mean I just made their job some 90% easier.

Freeman Burt:

Yeah, exactly because now they don’t have to go to Court and prove that they have probable cause. Because Greg already said, “Hey, yeah, I think I have such a good case that you know what? I don’t even need to look at it, in fact, its so good we can set this matter for trial and I’m ready to defend it. Let’s go!” That’s what it means when you enter a plea.

So people really need to comprehend that and most attorney’s that you will hire, in a hurry will enter a plea of Not Guilty for you. Without even explaining to you how much easier you just made the job for the Prosecutor.

Greg:

Many of them don’t even show up to the arraignment, they’ll just enter a written plea. So their missing entirely the point, I mean Burt, if I’m not mistaken, some of the original purpose of the arraignment was in order to challenge probable cause, for the defense, for the injured claimant, for them to have their say, their initial say.

Freeman Burt:

Yeah, so, what we need to understand and we’re not trying to make it look like Policemen are bad, or anybody’s bad in the system. There are bad apples in every field, OK? What were trying to do is sort out the bad apples, from the good apples, and make sure that the good apples don’t behave like bad apples.

Greg:

Yeah, and the good officers need our help doing a lot of that.

Freeman Burt:

Yeah, yes, they do. But here’s a very important point about Court.

Gnostic Media:

Wait, just to be clear though we are talking about code enforcement officers and not sheriffs or deputy’s right?

Freeman Burt:

Well, in this particular matter actually we have all of them involved.

Gnostic Media:

Well, I’m just trying to be clear, if these are code enforcement officers vs. people who are deputy’s or sheriffs that are actually hired and sworn to the people directly. So, I just wanted to get that out of the way.

Greg:

The one who assaulted me was a City cop.

Gnostic Media:

OK, thank you. Code enforcement. He had no rights no jurisdiction to do that.

Greg:

That’s right.

Freeman Burt:

Well, but they’re all code enforcement, so let’s not miscomprehended that. They’re all code enforcement and they all take the same Oath, so whether it’s a City Officer, or a County Officer or a State Officer or a Federal Officer, they all basically take the same Oath, and they all are taught to believe that their primary execution of their duties is to enforce code, and that’s not true.

Greg:

In this area too, there’s tons of bleed over between the city and the county guys. When the city was going through this turmoil, the county had to come and take over a little bit, like the Sheriff was running the PD. In a way, I’m sure that’s probably not kosher.

Freeman Burt:

Yeah, so anyway, what I want say about the Court is that, very often the Court, and by Court, I’m talking about the Judge, the Judge will only disclose to you that which is beneficial to the system and by system I mean the Prosecuting machine. OK, they’re not going to go out of their way to give you nails that you can throw in front of the machine and flatten its tires. So, the Judge is only going to push the points that are beneficial to the system. So, does that make sense?

Greg:

Yeah, Yeah, I mean…

Gnostic Media:

So, what happened next in this whole thing? You go to the, you went to the Court and you asked for this Demurrer and the Judge is up there, he’s saying you want to enter your plea? Innocent, guilty, etc… and then you totally ignore that, and you enter a Demurrer, what happens then?

Greg:

Well, the entering of the Demurrer actually happened, really all that happened between myself and the Court Clerk in this particular area, and that all happened prior to the arraignment. So all the paperwork and everything was filed before hand. There was a good three months or so between the incident and this arraignment. So that three months is obviously Burt and I preparing everything. So the Demurrer had been entered, and inf fact, had been entered twice. The first time we entered it prematurely, because the information from the prosecution had not yet been filed, but that did at least give them an opportunity to see that we entered something. The Judge I’m sure read it, and I’m sure was prepared to see that I’m going to do it again. So once the information had been filed, we filed the Demurrer a second time, and it was accepted. The Court docket showed that it had been accepted. They sent me my copy back, so I was able to show up with a stamped copy that had already been recorded with the Court Clerk. So that was pretty important in term of strategy. I wasn’t going there to surprise anybody, I’m pretty certain the Judge know exactly what I was there for.

So, what I was there for, my stated purpose…the mantra that was sort of going through my head, in terms of this arraignment, was to establish a date for a probable cause hearing, in order to address this demurrer, because the prosecution is supposed to respond to it in some way and frankly, I can’t do anything until the prosecution responds. I think as Burt has described it, this Demurrer, in terms of challenging probable cause, just freezes everything. It stops everything in its tracks, and the defense, the prosecution is supposed to then prove their probable cause.

So, I’m there specifically, the Judge, the Judge wanted to establish with me, it’s fascinating, you see in the video, he essentially ignores what the state attorney was trying to say, and the state attorney admits in the video, that he had no idea what my paperwork was. He thought it was civil. I don’t know if that was a scare tactic or what, but he, he didn’t do his homework it seems, but whatever.

Freeman Burt:

OK, I want you to delete that part. We don’t want to make anybody look bad.

Greg:

Alright, alright. Apologies, trying to be professional here. That has helped me so far, I suppose I shouldn’t stray from the path.

Freeman Burt:

Yeah, because we don’t really know why he did what he did, but he did what he did and the point is it was irrelevant to what we were doing.

Greg:

And that’s the thing, obviously on the floor, I didn’t address what he said. The Judge turned to me, he wanted to establish that I knew that I was representing myself, which, even then, when I tell him that I comprehend what he’s telling me, I don’t know if he asked me directly if I understood anything, but he wanted me to know that I could be taking the public defender, etc… etc… I told him I comprehend that your Honor, essentially then I stated that I am here a date for a probable cause hearing to address this Demurrer and the Judge said OK, he wanted to clarify further that you do not have representation, and of course I said no and he got my address, made sure that he was going to be able to contact me. He set a tracking date, which essentially was going to be a date about a month from that arraignment, for him to check back in to make sure everything was on track. So, that wasn’t the actually probable cause hearing date, but when I got home and checked the docket, when the docket was updated anyway, it showed that my arraignment had been disposed and I believe, Burt and I were talking about what the term itself might mean in this context, because I think it could mean, that it was a change of hands. Burt, is that right? There was no plea entered is what is really the point. I was expected to enter a plea, I said no, I’m really just hear to establish a date for this hearing, and that was it. Judge was very professional.

Freeman Burt:

Yeah, now ah… there was another point that I wanted to bring up and now I forgot it. But anyway, the purpose that we had there was of course to go to Court, not make the Prosecutors job easy, and not to allow the Judge to basically guide you into a trap. Now, Greg, you said that while you were sitting there, in the audience, you noticed that the Judge had instructed certain people about their right to remain silent.

Greg:

Yeah, one other guy showed up as a self-defending, you know with no representation. one of the points that we should mention from the video, in fact because this was something else I noticed was different between him and I. They ask you at some point to enter your name into the record, and a lot of what I was saying was prefaced “for the record” you know, Burt made the point to tell me, you’re speaking to the record, your speaking to the Court, you’re not really speaking to the Judge or anyone in particular…

Freeman Burt:

And why is that important?

Greg:

Well, I mean, what in terms of it actually being recorded?

Freeman Burt:

Always speaking to  the record, always. Yeah, why is that important?

Greg:

I don’t know. Help me elaborate maybe.

Freeman Burt:

Well, what happens when you are speaking with the Judge?

Greg:

They’re a referee, that’s kind of one of the things I suppose here.

Freeman Burt:

Legally speaking, means what? It means arguing, and what happens when you argue with Judge, you’re at risk of what?

Greg:

Contempt of Court.

Freeman Burt:

Exactly, so if you don’t want to be held in Contempt of Court, don’t speak to the Judge. That’s very easy to do.

Greg:

OK, easy enough.

Freeman Burt:

Yeah, every time you open your mouth, you speak for the Record. That way you’re not speaking to the Judge, you’re speaking to the Record. The Record cannot hold you in Contempt of Court.

Greg:

So, there was this other unrepresented guy, and they asked me to state my name for the record and I said, and Burt instructed me and again, this sort of idea that, only property has a name, so when they asked for my name, I said, well, for the record I am a man known as XYZ, Greg, and that was, that was enough. The Judge didn’t bat an eyelash at that. You know, I didn’t need to be theatrical about it, It is a very clear statement. I thought that that was one of the more, kind of effervescent statements I would have made as far as my being there, and again its a very simple statement that I am a man known as this name but this is not me. So the other unrepresented guy got up there, just spat out his name, and as he continued to talk the Judge had to stop him and say wait, this is why you need to consider representation because, what you’re saying here can be used against you, you know he kind of had to stop the guy from continuing to talk as he was going to.

Freeman Burt:

Yeah and that’s why I wanted to bring that up, because when the Judge proceeded to ask you more than a couple of questions, what did you do?

Greg:

That was the best out. Essentially, he did start to ask me if I had ever studied law, and if I had represented myself in a criminal case before. I answered his first question. I told him I studied privately, but that beyond that, any further questions, I’d like to request in written form with 21 days to respond and he again, he said OK.

Freeman Burt:

Yeah, he respected that.

Greg:

Yeah it seemed like it, and again, you see that he kind of has to stop this other guy in his tracks, and its really been an interesting thing reconfiguring my perspective on these men, because again as a if you going to call them men again cause their acting as Officers. I know they’re hands are tied in a number of ways and I get the sense that there are Judges out there, that are trying to do the right thing, do understand lawfully the difference  between Man’s Law, Natural Law. I really get the sense after having seen just a little bit of what I’ve seen that their hands are tied in a number of ways, they really are just referees and if you can not learn to stand as a free man in Court, you, he can’t do anything for you, obviously. Just as a referee, that’s his place just to make some calls.

Freeman Burt:

Exactly, so what I want people to realize is that, you know, asking the Judge, to give you the questions in writing, its a very honorable way of exercising your right to remain silent. Which, judges will tell you, you have that right. You know, just like you heard Greg saying, the Judge actually had to stop someone else because he was attempting to incriminate himself, and that’s not a very good thing for a Judge to watch someone there in front of him, you know eagerly put a rope around his neck. So, when you do something, when you told the Judge you would like the questions in writing, you’re doing what the Judge will tell the next guy that is talking too much.

Now, in one case, this one fellow that was trying to help and he raised his hand there, standing next to the public defender, that he wanted to talk to the Judge, and the Judge said, OK before you talk, let me say this, in my 20-something, whatever years of being on the bench, I’ve never head someone speak on their behalf and improve their case, but you might be the first one… go ahead.

So, this is a Judge telling someone this. OK, so, it’s not to your advantage to blab in Court and one strategy that I try to tell people, and I think Greg has embraced, is that when you go to a Court hearing, imagine everybody staying quiet. Not much is going to happen. At that point, the Judge is only going to go according to what has been turned into the record according to paperwork, OK, but if people start talking, well, who’s at higher risk of screwing up? He who talks the most! So you don’t want to be that guy. So it’s to your advantage to say nothing. If a prosecutor wants to blab for half an hour, let him blab. You know, you can use whatever he says against him also. So it doesn’t just go for you, it also goes for the prosecutor, or whenever the attorney is on the other side, cause attorneys love to talk. That’s what they get paid for.

Greg:

That’s certainly true.

Freeman Burt:

So, so anyway, after the hearing then, what was basically the main things on our plate, after you completed that hearing?

Greg:

We should mention, we had also filed for discovery prior to this hearing, so another thing you saw in the video, was the Judge returning a CD to me and the state attorney saying something to the effect of, he believes this was supposed to have been Reciprocal discovery, which was not technically true. There’s a CCTV footage, dash camera footage, and dash and police person audio, that I was able to put into a composite, so you were able to view it all at once and kind of see everything synchronized, and I turned in a copy to Court Records, so that this existed, because these files only existed separately prior to this and I actually gave a copy to the state attorney, and I, frankly, you know in an email actually, I told him, look this, you need to understand the kind of behavior that you and the state are endorsing. This is not, and again a very cordial email. These guys again, they eventually had to treat me as an attorney, they were very respectful in their communications and I think that they eventually realized that, you know the State Attorney even tried to get me to sign something, while I was in the Courtroom for this arraignment before hand. I told him, look you know I can only take anything in writing, just send it my address. I think he was trying to get me to sign a waver saying I was going to represent myself, which I believe is another trap for me to have given up my right to challenge probable cause. So anyway, go ahead Burt.

Freeman Burt:

That was one of your strategies also, to avoid signing anything.

Greg:

Oh, yeah. It seems like there’s a number of ways they can lock you down.

Freeman Burt:

I want to, I wanted to bring in Tom, and Tom, if you could maybe elaborate or something about the basic, strategy, the basic approach that Greg was exercising there to first, prevent him from making mistakes and to encourage the Court to basically do the right thing.

Dr Tom:

Yeah, well, I was trying to listing as a naive listener, and I don’t mean a stupid listener, I mean one who isn’t very familiar with this, or maybe one who has gotten into trouble with the system, and the strategy that Greg used, I think was based first of all on a very general principle. He knew what he wanted to accomplish, he didn’t just go into the system. Most people who are traffic tickets and stuff, they just wait for the Court date. They don’t have a plan. They don’t know why they’re there, and then as he pointed out, the Judge told a man, you know , stop talking. So first of all, he had a clear reason for what he was going to do. What he was going to say to the Judge, and so forth and the strategy is one thing, but I think as a listener, I wouldn’t have gotten enough of the message that the very, very first thing that has to be established is probable cause and the cop has to have probable cause before he contacts you, not after he contacts you. So, the going before the magistrate is the way to do that. About a year ago, Burt, I remember you were big on understanding the role of the magistrate. That should be the first contact with the Judicial System, and magistrates, there’s always a magistrate on duty and the cop has to show the magistrate that he had probable cause to make contact with you. So, if people understood that, that nothing matters until its determined that the cop had probable cause, then they shouldn’t do anything else but work toward that end.

Freeman Burt:

Exactly. Exactly, yeah. Actually what you just said, that happens very often, that after you are arrested, actually I’ve got another guy in New York that I’m helping him with a similar situation, after you are arrested, then the cops just go like crazy trying to make sure that they in fact, had probable cause. After the fact.

Dr Tom:

Yeah, so that’s after the fact.

Freeman Burt:

That’s illegal.

Dr Tom:

Right, and that’s what most people don’t understand. That the very first thing that has to happen is there has be a judicial determination that the cop a reason to contact you, probable cause to contact you. I think in Greg’s case, I think he said he couldn’t read his license plate or something.

Freeman Burt:

Well, and there’s another aspect to this before we go any much further because what people are going to ask is, well, why did he address you to begin with? What was his excuse for coming to your door, and of course he had two reasons, and what were those reasons, Greg?

Greg:

I didn’t find this out obviously until later, so they jailed me for 12 hours and when I got out on bail, they gave me two citations. One for an obstructed tag and one for speeding. So, supposedly those were his, that was his excuse, now…

Gnostic Media:

So, this, these are things that would apply to a vehicle in commerce, is that correct? Not a buggie going down the road, who was just going from point A to point B.

Greg:

Yeah, from my understanding this was just a, you know, I’ve read a number of things about citations, I don’t want to speak not knowing much about it, but this was a simple citation in terms of just something being presented. Now, what’s fascinating too is I never had a chance to sign the thing. Which I think is an interesting part of it because our strategy with these citations ended up being, obviously I have them and I didn’t want to pay them. I feel, I felt ridiculous having to pay this kind of thing for what happened. What Burt tried to encourage me towards was fighting only on one front. He said you don’t want to compound your problems really. If this is something you can just get out of the way, just pay it. Frankly, I see now kind of the purpose of this strategy, because we going to be able to move forward with this civil action at this point, and what we did with these citations is when I paid them with the money order, I’d end up sending this money order in through mail, I had the clerk at the bank write on to the check that it was paid under duress and that it was an extortion payment for fear of my life and I have a copy of this now, they did cash it. So it exists at least its something that we’re going to attach to the civil action that we’re going to file in this case that happened to me.

Freeman Burt:

Exactly so, at the particular time that you did that with the payment, it wasn’t quite clear. Now looking back, you can see that we can still tie now those traffic citations to the other case that we’re going to enter.

Greg:

Yeah, that makes sense now in hindsight definitely. I was pretty pissed about it at first, in terms of having to pay this ridiculous crap and the fact that I didn’t sign them. I felt like, wow this has to be, this has to be something that I didn’t consent to this and I’m not saying that I’m acting in commerce but it’s interesting how little we had to really get into Free Man territory for this case. We didn’t have to get, we’re not part of a movement. We’ve talked about this a number of times, Burt and I and Tom. That this is really, we’re not trying to get out there as any sort of wild sovereign movement or anything like that. This was frankly just a case of them violating their own written statues. That was an interesting part I think, we didn’t really even have to touch the territory of the fact, that I was in property, that I was on a postal road.

Gnostic Media:

I think the real issue here is that we’re all Free Men and that’s it’s empowering people to learn to stand up for their own rights, we’re not trying to bring about a group think or heard mentality here of a Free Men Movement or something. We’re trying to empower people with information so when they get into these situations which inevitably happens with these psychopaths, then we have a process to go through and deal with these types of people with how to keep from putting ourselves and our families at risk.

Freeman Burt:

Exactly.

Greg:

I absolutely agree.

Freeman Burt:

Now, i wanted to bring in Tom and get his point of view on the, you know on what we did with the traffic citations, because I didn’t want Greg to basically be fighting two fronts and confuse our goal, our purpose. At the time, it wasn’t completely clear to Greg why we were doing it but Greg concentrated on the main goal which was the most important thing to defeat this Felony

Dr Tom:

What did, I’m not sure what you want me to address in that.

Freeman Burt:

Just basically the overall strategy and how someone at the beginning might not be able to see what we were trying to do.

Dr Tom:

Yeah, I would just repeat what I said before, that most patriots go in and say things like, you don’t have jurisdiction over me. Well, what Greg did was say OK, lets have a hearing to see if that’s true. If you have probable cause that gives you jurisdiction over me. So, he, proceeding by using their own rules against them is probably the best strategy, then going in wrapped in the Constitution, waving the American Flag and saying your a Son of God and all that stuff. That doesn’t get anywhere, makes for good theater, but it’s not very effective, and I think that there needs to be a model for that and I think that what Greg did can serve as a model for people to stay focused. He paid the Citations so he wasn’t battling that issue, but paid them under duress and that’s one model. For everybody, I would say whether one is a believer or not believer, if you look at the Trial of Jesus in the Gospels, Jesus refused to enter a Plea. Everybody thought he was being humble, but he knew the Law and he wouldn’t enter a Plea so the Herod didn’t get jurisdiction over him, so they sent him to Pilate, he wouldn’t enter Pilate’s Jurisdiction, and Pilates Wife said, don’t mess with this guy, he knows what he’s doing and so the sent him to Herod, he wouldn’t enter into Herod’s Jurisdiction. So Herod gave him a Mock Trial, and a lot of Trials are Mock Trials even today and they murdered him. They had to murder him, they couldn’t execute him properly, but that’s not so far removed from what happens today. Murder by cop is a very prevalent thing on American soil today, and I think Greg is very lucky that this crazy man didn’t pull a gun on him and do him damage.

Greg:

Yeah, that’s something I’ve wondered about a number of times. I’ve mentioned, my door was unlocked. If he wasn’t able to open my door, I’m not sure what he could have done. He could have pulled a gun and shot through my window, and there’s the a number of things that could have gone wrong. In a way, I’m kind of happy that he was able to open the door and see that I was just going to acquiesce.

Gnostic Media:

This brings up the issue of how important it is for people to carry these small 808 #16 type cameras, that in fact, I gave some to Kim and Dave etc… I ordered some for them for their case and everything and we have a number of them, but their small HD cameras that fit on your key chain and that way, whenever your out driving anywhere doing any of this kind of stuff, you have a camera there and you can film it, and you’re not reliant upon summoning the cruisers camera, the officers microphone stuff the gas station stuff. You also get that stuff, but then you have your own camera on your key chain, on your person, ready to go at any time.

Greg:

Let me tell you the biggest kick in the balls in this entire story is that I have a dash cam and that my mount was up. On any other night, I would have had the thing on and running. I don’t know what the hell I was thinking this night and I swear to God since it’s happened, I’ve used it every day. I turn it on and I’ve almost caught wreaks a number of times, I mean there’s a number of reasons to have it, and I can spin it around, so that I can, if there was an officer there, it would be visible. I just kicked myself over and over for that.

Gnostic Media:

And just so people the 808 #16 and I will put a link for that to one or two of the official resellers of those cameras, but they’re $40 and they look like the clicker for your car alarm that goes on your key chain and it’s a 720p so its HD and you can record, I mean you can plug it into the cigarette lighter and it will hold a 32 gigabit memory stick so you can, you can record while you’re driving for 24 hours. Yeah, do it folks, it’s definitely been a cool experience having the camera on. It’s worth it.

Freeman Burt:

So, so anyways the next step after the hearing was over was for us to concentrate on what?

Greg:

We were obtaining supplemental discovery. We started to realize that this Officer had a reputation and there might actually be some more information to collect and we were absolutely right. We knew this tracking hearing was coming up, and I had this wavier actually, the Judge sent me a waiver. I believe the same waiver the state attorney might have been giving me, trying to get me to sign. I asked Burt what to do with this thing, I was a little bit nervous about it. They were obviously expecting a response and he told me to just hang on to it, bring it to the hearing. Don’t sign anything, don’t send anything anywhere. We even talked about drawing up a small document to explain, why it’s not signed, but we didn’t have to end up doing that. This hearing was coming up and we wanted to be able to at least show the Judge that we’ve made some headway, and when we showed up we were ready to have a list of deponents, I believe the word is. People we wanted to depose, that would have had some input on this particular officer, man we were getting ready… there was one other thing I think, we were getting ready to send the state attorney a couple frightening email. Oh, I think one of them too was interesting. I ended up having to go to the hospital for this, just to get a CAT scan to make sure my head was alright. I had scars from the Cuff as well, so I just wanted to at least go and get a record of this too, so I went a day or two later. I’ve got medical bills from that, which you know, has been a pain.

Gnostic Media:

After you were arrested, didn’t one of the other officers at the police station comment how you’re wrists had been cut?

Greg:

Yeah, yeah, I, the EMT these were the volunteer that had to come and actually put a band aid on me while I was at the jail and one of the deputies, he wasn’t on scene during the incident. There were three deputies that ended up showing up after the incident and one of them realized, I was in the back of the cruiser, you know basically begging with these guys and within 5 minute intervals, I was kind of like, gentlemen please, these cuffs are really hurting one of them is tight. Finally after 45 minutes they loosen them up and when we’re back in the Jail, one of the deputies like, “Wow man those things really were on tight.” I’m looking at the scar right now. I have pictures of all of it obviously.

Freeman Burt:

Yeah, which by the way, I keep forgetting to remind you that you need to get the name of that guy also.

Greg:

Oh, yeah, what the deputy?

Freeman Burt:

Yeah, the one who made that comment.

Greg:

Oh, yeah. I’ll definitely get their info and it was funny, one of the EMT’s recognized me from one of the bands that I’m in. That was hysterical. I was recognized the first time I was in jail for a band. Small tidbit. So, I don’t know if I answered the question or not.

Freeman Burt:

Well, so anyway, our point was to continue to gather as much information as possible, so that when we went to this particular hearing we can then subpoena additional information for the Judge.

Gnostic Media:

Now, let me ask you, let me interject here. One thing that I notice here is that in this particular case and its probably the same for many other cases and we can take this as an example, but we should never assume that the other officers, EMTs, etc… are on the same team. They might be on your team in a particular case, so why not contact other people in the department. Try and get information on officers involved, etc… do background information from prior employers and see if we can build up a case against the officers who were involved against their character.

Freeman Burt:

Well, and that’s the thing. One of my basic strategies is to try to insert a wedge between your opponents. You want to put in a wedge between the prosecutor…

Greg:

Divide and conquer…

Freeman Burt:

Yeah, divide and conquer, a wedge between the prosecutor and the Judge, between the prosecutor and the city attorneys, between the cop supervisor and the lower cop, between the Sheriff and the other guy, between as many of them as you possibly can because like you said correctly, now when it comes down to it, any witness that’s a Government Official that gets up there and lies and you’re able to impeach him or her, that’s why you also need discovery. That’s what you also need, might need to subpoena certain information because it might be usable for you to impeach a particular witness if you don’t agree that some previous statement they may have made. So, there’s a lot of good reasons for getting a subpoena, but yeah, exactly, that’s what you wanna do. Then turn the tide against them and get them testifying against each other, which we right now have plenty of material to use for that particular purpose.

Greg:

Yeah, we have found quit a lot of information. It’s been really enlightening, like I’ve mentioned. So, where else can we go with this Burt?

Freeman Burt:

Well, now, let’s move on to the conclusion. What happened? How did all our effort pay off? What people need to remember is we had one court hearing and then we did a lot of behind the scenes type of work, that the prosecutor was very aware we were conducting. OK, there was nothing that we were doing that was hidden from him. He was just behind the scenes, meaning that it was not in court. OK, but it was very much happening. So, what was the end result Greg?

Greg:

Well, it’s surprisingly anti-climatic as awesome as it is. You know, again we were preparing for this hearing, which was supposed to have been yesterday, I think. You know I check the court docket religiously, you’re able to check it online. So, I’m constantly seeing if there’s updates or you know, if anything is going on, and I just happened to check one night and it so happens that they had filed a nolle prosequi, which I believe means they’re just not going to pursue the charges any further and the case was closed. So again, anti-climatic. I ended up getting the paperwork through email but, you know, we’re not entirely sure why they decided to drop it. We’re wondering what happened with this officer actually, if he’s even still working? We’re wondering if, you know, any number of things could have happened.

Gnostic Media:

And do you still fully plan on going after the Officer and the city, the PD at all, correct?

Greg:

Yeah, oh yeah. I’m not done with this by a long shot.

Dr Tom:

He’s just going to go to work for homeland security, he’s a perfect candidate for the TSA.

Gnostic Media:

TSA or NSA or CIA, etc… they’re all sociopaths, psychopaths.

Dr Tom:

Yeah, well this one is a violent one. You know, he’s willing to put his hands on people and violate them.

Greg:

Yeah, and again, hopefully, hopefully ladies and gentlemen you’ll all be able to see this eventually. I definitely want to get the video out there when we’re able.

Gnostic Media:

Alright, so, that’s even more anti-climatic for a conclusion. So, what else can we give people to, just give them something just amazing to take away from your cop beating.

Greg:

I’ve said multiple times in my conversations with Burt throughout this, that I feel like my biggest asset throughout this has been just to have maintained my rational. To just have stayed cool, you know, because I’m in the back of their car at some point. I realize there is audio, I know they’re recording me and there’s just no reason for me to have acted as an animal. That’s the thing, I think in the end I was able to show that what happened, was ultimately unprecedented. This was obviously an unreasonable person I was dealing with. So, if there’s any thing amazing I can give you guys, I really just want to say that my cynicism has been dulled a little bit from this. I feel much more empowered by this experience. I feel much more like there is something that can be done, and this is so much more a lack of understanding by the people, because we are ultimately, I feel like freedom isn’t going to go anywhere. We just have no idea how to fight for it anymore. We don’t know what it means to be free man, when you you’re really free, like I’m not really free. I still feel like I’m dependent in some ways, to be truly free, you’ve got to know how to not be duped, you know you’re rhetoric has to be in place. It’s something I have, something I have tried to spend time on in fact, its just my ability ability to speak. Which helped I think in court.

Gnostic Media:

Have you studied the Trivium, Greg?

Greg:

Yeah, yeah, I have to say now it’s been, I was trying to think of how long its been now. I think I discovered, Jan I found you through the Ultimate History Lesson of all things. It got me in touch with Richard Rose, Tragedy and Hope, and I found my way around your site eventually, and I think I started with the Trivium education area and Gino Dennings interviews, and so in fact, studying the fallacies, and God Bless my fiancee, I probably drive people insane now with calling out fallacies. I try to be as cordial as possible and just I have now time for it anymore. It really feel so much like that, that look, I can’t sit here and just, I can’t sit here and act as though this is a rational argument and I need to just tell you right now that I can’t even respond to you, because if we’re going to move forward with something reasonable and actually come to a conclusion, then you have to accept a few of these things.

Anyway, so again man, if there’s anything I could say about all this, you have people study your Trivium, you know, be able to work yourself through. I was very lucky to be able to have Burt throughout this, there was a number of things I was able to entrust in him. You know, which I was able to hear some things from him and then go and research the topics for myself and I have to say man, over and over I have a difficult time disproving a lot of these things and obviously at this point we at least had a win, so I can at least say the information helped in that regard. I can’t say exactly what happened or what caused it, but we certainly threw a monkey wrench into the normal day to day.

Gnostic Media:

Now, what would happen if everyone walking into a Courtroom under circumstances like these, requested Demurrer instead of putting in a plea, etc… I mean probably the whole, the way that the whole system has been running for the last hundred years, would come to a screeching halt that fast.

Greg:

Yeah, when people stop acting like prey, then the court system will stop acting like as a cash register, for…

Gnostic Media:

Or as a predator.

Greg:

Yeah, yeah, you can’t, I love to that Richard Grove has mentioned this before, that the predator, the notion of calling the a predator even gives them some credence, because a predator has a purpose in the you know “ecosystem” that you could argue is even in existence. You know he says what, inner specific klepto parasites. Love that.

Dr Tom:

They teach, rape crisis centers will teach women how not to act like a prey because that encourages the predator. If you, for example, if an animal stays perfectly still, the predator may not be able to see it, until it moves. So they teach women who are in a rape situation not to act like prey and there’s many ways to do that. Some women have reported, “I’m going to throw up now,” or another one will say, “I’m having my period” or something of that sort, but they don’t act cowering and afraid of them and the wisdom that they say this comes from, is that a lot of women don’t get raped who refuse to act like prey, so…

Gnostic Media:

Turn around and slap the assailant in the face instead or something.

Greg:

Yeah, show your teeth!

Dr Tom:

Or, your Mother taught you better manners then this!

Gnostic Media:

Yeah, there you go! Ha, I didn’t have a Mother, then what?

Dr Tom:

I had a cousin who was robbed by a couple of Black guys and that becomes important because of what he said to them, and he gave them his wallet and he got really mad and he said, “You’re the kind of kind of guys that give Black people a bad name!” And they gave him his wallet back and left. It’s a surprise.

Gnostic Media:

It’s funny that you say that, because sort of similar, but not your typical criminals. We were going down to Mexico, on past Tijuana down past Ensenada, doing oh a buddy of mine he was driving about 105, probably 165 Kilometers an hour or something like that and we get pulled over by the Mexican Federales, and their trying to extort money from us and you know, we gave them 60 bucks. Then, we turned around and complained at them and said, well hey, you guys are taking all of our lunch money and everything. We came down here to enjoy the day in Mexico and bring money to your Country and the guys felt bad and they gave us half our money back.

Greg:

That’s so funny.

Freeman Burt:

There’s honor among thieves, ah?

Dr Tom:

But I think it’s an important point not to act like prey and if we review what Greg did, he didn’t act like prey, he was resistant but verbally, saying sorry I don’t want to give you that information and so forth, and he was eloquent and calm about it. So, he wasn’t acting like prey and I think that if he offered real resistance, I think that guy would have shot him.

Greg:

Oh it’s possible, at least tased.

Gnostic Media:

And we discussed this before, that its better to get them into the courtroom and do battle there, then on the side of the freeway with a psychopath with a gun.

Greg:

Yeah, I’ve been thinking about that a lot. Today in fact, I was in my property traveling around, and there’s a couple of these guys on, man there are cruisers all over this city I don’t know what’s happened. They, there was a couple of them behind me. One pulled someone over right behind me. That’s the thing about this, my adrenaline has no time to cease, I have no time to calm down before this guy is up in your window, in your face, so my hearts pumping, and that’s the moment when I should be getting my camera ready, when I should be getting my phone. I should be thinking about what I’m going to say to this guy, what I’m not going to say to this guy and it’s an awful experience obviously. As soon as you see those lights, it doesn’t matter if it wasn’t you, it did not matter my heart still leaped out of my chest and I’m like God, I got to do this all over again. I keep thinking in my head about what the right strategy could be. Because there’s a way for me to be able to let this guy know, I’m not a threat but I can’t give you what you’re demanding of me. I can’t acquiesce to this, but I’m not a threat. It’s this weird balance that you have to try to strike with these guys.

Dr Tom:

Yeah, but I think in today’s world, we all need to go under the assumption if a cop contacts you, you’re dealing with someone who would be willing to kill you on the spot and that your goal, at that moment, has to be to get out of that situation with as little injury as possible and with your life in tact. I think that has to be your goal with any contact with a police officer.

Greg:

Safety first.

Dr Tom:

And then, kick butt in court.

Greg:

Yes, Sir.

Freeman Burt:

OK, let me ask you this, Greg. What was your attire when you went to court and when you were filing papers and when you were, you know, visiting some of these Government Offices?

Dr Tom:

Very, very important. He was wearing the uniform, right Greg?

Greg:

That’s right, that’s right. I actually got my first suit, fitted suit through this whole experience, so that I had something to kind of intimidate with as I was walking around. I was well aware as I was entering the city, I could be viewed at any given point, by I say my enemy maybe in this context, but of course its opponent. At any given time, I just wanted them to see me being suave and professional and looking as decent as I could.

Gnostic Media:

Well, I’ve made this point very clear to Kim and Dave in their case and whenever I went down to the courthouse and filed papers or did anything in that case, I made sure to put on my nice suit. I would throw on my fedora of course take it off when you go inside the building, etc… but pea-cocking is very important and here is how things work. Regular street clothes are trumped by cop, you know, rock, paper, scissors here, and cop uniform is trumped by suit and it is amazing, when you walk into a courthouse or anything, when you are wearing a suit, how dramatically differently you are treated. If you wear a two or three piece suit, you have total respect from the guards at the door. You know I even had, when I’d be entering the courtroom down in Riverside County, for their case, I would have the deputy’s in the courthouses ask me if i was a lawyer, and I would just look at them and I wouldn’t say Yes or No, I would say, well, some accuse me of that, you know, something like that. Instead of answering their question, give it to them, you know, some people have told me that, in fact, you just asked me if I was a lawyer right now, and so you can use that to your advantage, but pea-cocking, in these types of situations, you got to realize that a cop, you know, he’s got the uniform on, he’s got his bullet proof vest on, that is pea-cocking, so trump their pea-cocking.

Greg:

Absolutely, you can go out to dinner and it’s the same kind of thing.

Freeman Burt:

Well, but along with the uniform though, you demeanor was critical, right Greg?

Greg:

  Oh yeah, again, i was not combative, a lot of Sirs and Ma’ams and smiling, I mean really, I really feel like its ultimately just a defense mechanism for me, I just want them to know I just, I’m the everyman in this situation. This could have happened to anybody. You don’t know who I am, these people don;t know who I am, outside of the situation and the best I can do is represent just what any average person. This could have happened to anybody, I’m not a combative person. I just thought, yeah I wanted them to see that. I try to have my demeanor reflect that at all costs.

Freeman Burt:

But at the same time, you were firm. Because in one situation you went and actually they asked you, if you were an attorney and what was your response?

Greg:

Oh, I told them I just can’t answer any questions at this particular time.

Freeman Burt:

Yeah, I am here for this purpose, please execute it. Very nicely but firmly.

Greg:

Yeah, there’s a way to be nice about it, it’s incredible. Hey man, the word “no”, I’m familiar with Mark Passers work, something that’s helped a lot with my understanding of just what happened to me and why this was so wrong on so many levels. I mean I know sort of deep down in my bones that it was wrong, but when you really break this thing apart and compare man’s law to this notion of Natural Law, and you know, it’s led me to reading a number of other texts. In fact, the Harvard Dean of Law, I believe from the 19-teens to the 1930s, Roscoe Pound has an excellent book The Spirit of the Common Law and I’d just like to throw that out there just reading the history of how these thing came to be and why this balance between contractual law and statutory law, its really fascinating. It’s one of these things that gets me to understand that freedom hasn’t gone anywhere. We are certainly being duped, we are certainly being reamed, and you know Jan, you bring up pea-cocking, this is just one of many tactics used just to try to get the average person to feel, I know the average person feels like hey, I’m just a law abiding citizen. Tom and I were even discussing the other day, a number of religious folks even, I’m just a law abiding Christian, that this is not, I’m not here to stir anything up, but these are people who have forgotten this principle of self-defense and why its important for you to understand what no is. Why this is the lost word, you know I love that.

Gnostic Media:

I think it’s important for people to realize too that psychopaths do not believe in Natural Law, typically, they believe in that they have the write to push themselves on anyone else at any time. Understanding these things and how they work, gives us an added layer of protection, but in general psychopaths don’t have any natural barriers, such as my freedom ends where your nose begins.

Dr Tom:

That’s even something that young people may believe, because I saw a photo of a teenage boy, maybe 14 or 15 and on his t-shirt it said it’s not illegal if you don’t get caught. So everything goes in the world and the danger is getting caught.

Greg:

You know this whole YOLO movement, right the You Only Live Once, this, it’s everywhere man, it really is. It wears a mask in many ways, but this whole notion of whatever you can call it. The understanding of natural rights, I don’t even know what to really, it’s really hard to articulate, but you see it in a number of different forms, and it always comes along with some dumb down version of something. Whether its music or art, anyway, YOLO!

Freeman Burt:

So another point that I want to to highlight that we didn’t, maybe it’s not so obvious here, I know Greg lightly touched on it, is that when you are acting “Pro Se” don’t over look the fact that, according to them, you’re acting as your own attorney. OK, that’s a reality, therefore they must treat you with the respect you deserve.

Greg:

I also want to emphasis that I didn’t pay is it the docket fee, Burt?

Freeman Burt:

What (inaudible)

Greg:

I didn’t have, would I have had to?

Freeman Burt:

No, in a criminal case you don’t have to, but that’s the part now, you said, when you went to the first and last hearing you were surprised as to how people showed up to court.

Greg:

Oh yeah, I mean first of all there were a number of attorneys obviously there with their clients, so I was initially actually really shocked at the behavior of the public defender who had forgotten about a couple of her client who were in cuffs outside the other door. So you see how responsible some of these people who, I couldn’t help but to think, throughout this entire thing of the fallacy of authority, of the ad verecundiam, because you want to look at these people as though they’re the ones who know what’s going on. So not only was there that on the side of the attorneys, some rather unprofessional behavior, but then there were clients and civilians showing up in just, you know the guy who wanted to represent himself, did not look the part. I say that very much with the meaning that this is not a stage, and man when you’re in there do you feel that. Cause there’s a lot of unspoken tension, holy crap. You really get that sense between some attorneys, the Judge could not believe the fact that the public defender had forgotten a couple of her clients. She had to ask him, you know again, it all happens in beautiful rhetoric, so if you’re not paying attention, you’re not going to catch it. But that he was kind of laughing at her a little and it’s just this tension in the courtroom for that moment, of oh my god this women. So, I don’t know if I answered your question Burt, but yeah, there weren’t necessarily any other people there, I felt in a way I was the only man in that courtroom, in a sense.

Freeman Burt:

Yeah its sad and one of the biggest problems, that, and of course I’ve seen this first hand, is people show up to court looking for mercy. That’s the wrong attitude to have when you go to court. You do not go there looking for mercy.

Dr Tom:

You’re a slave, slaves look for mercy

Freeman Burt:

Yeah.

Dr Tom:

People with no control look for mercy.

Freeman Burt:

Yeah so people are either there looking for mercy, either from their attorney or they expect the attorney to go out there and beg for mercy from the Judge, which actually some attorneys do, right? They say, I pray to you my dear Judge that you will grant this blah, blah, blah, blah… that’s begging for mercy. You don’t do that. You go there and tell them to follow the Law.

Greg:

Yeah, you act like pray and you become prayed upon.

Freeman Burt:

So, anyway, I think that should kind of cover it there, Mr. Host…

Greg:

Yeah…if there’s anything else we can cover man, let me …

Gnostic Media:

Hey Greg, do you have an important takeaway point that you would like people to have from this episode?

Greg:

Oh man, there a zen… there’s this little Zen and I think they’re called koan I think, this notion of having a beginners mind I think. Burt mentioned this before, there’s a Zen Koan, a Zen tee master whose speaking with a Western anthropologist that’s shown up and is interested in his study and he pours the guy tea and continues to pour, and continues to pour until the anthropologist finally says, it can’t fit anymore in there, stop pouring and you know the point of this being the Master says something to the effect, “How can I fill your cup if it is already full?” So, it is ultimately what you think you know that is the problem here, and Burt said it in such a way that we suffer from a curable disease called ignorance, and very much for ignorance, very much meaning that ignorance is this notion of ignoring, we are simply ignoring and if you can only allow yourself to apologize to yourself and say that you were wrong about some things. I understand its very difficult to do, but ultimately of top importance I think and actually starting to understand what the hell is going on here.

Gnostic Media:

Greg, are you a conspiracy theorist?

Greg:

I ah, I reserve my right to not self incriminate.

Gnostic Media:

Ha, ha, ha.

Dr Tom:

Please put your question in writing and give him 21 days…

Greg:

That’s right 21 days.

Gnostic Media:

There you go. Tom, Burt, anything you to would like to add to the conclusion?

Dr Tom:

No, except for just don’t do anything until probable cause is established. Don’t get in the system, you can’t be in the system without probably cause.

Freeman Burt:

Well, what I say is the very first rule of Art of War, you know, know your enemy and know yourself and in a hundred battles you shall never peril. So, you need to begin from that point of view. If you’re going to go to court, and they’re your opponent, at least try to get to know them, but if you don’t even know yourself, you cannot even begin to know your opponent. Most people don’t know themselves, they don’t know who they are. So, they go to court and they allow the court to define them, and the court is going to define you, the easiest way that you will fit into their system. That’s a fact and that’s what I want people to take away from this.

Gnostic Media:

Alright gentlemen, thank you so much and that’s a wrap!

Greg:

Thanks so much Jan!

Dr Tom:

Take care Jan.

Freeman Burt:

Take care.

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